Zideck

Dear Python,

January 20, 2010

A while back I was playing a game with awesome and creative game play. For a while I couldn't put my finger on just what was so magical about it but one day it hit me. It was the crowds. You spent the entire game doing things in crowds and you really felt like there were people all around you. The realism of the game was incredible and it wasn't because of the graphics or the physics. The game designers managed to create something intangible and I was awed at the game's ingenuity.

That game sucked.

It sucked horribly. And it's suckiness hurt me in a really awful way, because that game was awesome at some things. It was awesome at the game play. It had good graphics. But ultimately, it had a plot and acting that were so bad they took away from the game. They took a lot. So much that I was longing for good old fashioned Mario style games where there wasn't a plot at all.

This is exactly how I feel about you, Python. You had so much potential to be the best thing since sliced bread. You blew it. You completely destroyed your potential and now you're limping along on the "special" team with contenders like PHP and Perl. Really. I expected more from you.

It all started with your lists. I think that was when I really fell in love. You see in a language like Java or php if you want to get the last element of the list you have to write something like $a[count($a) - 1]. But python was different: just write a[-1].

Want a piece of a list? Don't worry about writing a for loop or something like that to extract it, just use the built in slice operator to pull out what you want. You want to stick two lists together? Just use +.

And your statement blocks were something to behold. You see when I had heard about how python doesn't use {} like everyone else, I was doubtful. When I heard that you control blocks through tab structure I was pessimistic. But then I tried it. No () in your ifs, no {} around your blocks. The succinctness of the code is incredible. I loved it, absolutely loved it. Everything was shorter and so much nicer.

But it was also your downfall. And this is a point I want to make very clear. What was your raison d'etre? Why did you come into existence in the first place? What did you have that other languages didn't have?

The first bits of Python all point to this: the purpose of python is to have a language like c or Perl but to make it easy to read, easy to use, and short. The short part almost overrode everything else. This was your objective, your mandate from heaven. And at the start of it all, with your lists and your dictionaries and your if blocks; everything was perfectly clear (and very short).

But then you got jealous of the big players. You saw that others had things you didn't have and you wanted to compete in a game that you were never destined to play. And who could blame you? The megaliths in the crowd like Java and c++ were beginning to overshadow the small guys and were even starting to overtake some of the oldest and wisest players: c, Fortran, lisp. What did they have in common? Objects.

But you weren't ecstatic about objects. You didn't really like them and you didn't trust them. So you decided to only give them a little. You cut corners. You made objects but you made them hard to use. That was a mistake.

Encapsulation

There is no encapsulation. There are three tiers to OO. One of them is encapsulation. Having OO without encapsulation is about as nice as sawing a leg off a three legged stool. I can hear you yelling, "That third leg is completely unnecessary. We're all consenting adults here. Just balance, like this..." *crash*.

Batteries

As the saying goes, "Batteries are included," but as the saying fails to tell you, try to change your batteries and you are completely screwed.

"Batteries included" means that you don't have to write core, common functionality yourself, or even go on line and find a library that does it for you. A library already exists in the language and all you need to do is use it.

However, these libraries are inherently static. This means that if the library doesn't do what you want it to, you are screwed. There is no diagnosing or fixing errors in the library. If they happen, pack up and try a different language.

For example, I was experimenting with writing a light web crawler in python (I needed a few thousand line project to really sink my teeth into; tutorials can only get you so far.) After a while, the http client would simply hang on a page for five minutes and then throw an error.

This is bad for several reasons. First, after some research in the error, I found that the problem was with Python, not the other website. Second, it didn't just throw an error. I can catch errors. It waited for five minutes, and then it threw an error. Good luck putting a try catch around that baby. This essentially nuked any possibility my crawler had of success.

This

And then you omitted the implied this. Let me tell you a story. After learning Java (my first real language) I decided that I needed to learn a new language so I settled on C because it was different. But because I was so used to OO I still used a lot of OO principles.

Too many, in fact. I would create structs with function pointers in them, and then have the functions that were being pointed to take a "this" as the first argument. After doing this for close to a month I realized I was doing all of the work an OO compiler would do for me manually. I wasn't programming in C at all, I was still programming in Java.

In disgust, I threw that code away, hoping to never see it again. But sadly, this is exactly how python is. It doesn't really take care of anything for you. You have to have "this" as the first argument to every function in a class. Once in a function, you have to use "this" to access any variables or other functions.

And the manual has the audacity to claim that it is more clear. Let me tell you something. I programmed exclusively in Java while getting my BS in CS, and I have programmed nearly exclusively in PHP since. The Java way is better. The implied this is easy to understand. Some IDE's even highlight the class variables with a different color than the local variables, allowing an easy distinction. In the end you save tons of characters by having an implied "this".

In a language whose core mantra is "make is simple, make it short" throwing away the implied "this" seems particularly disgusting. You went to all that trouble to make it so that curly braces, unnecessary parens, and invalid tabbing were thrown out and you decided to force me to write five extra characters for every inner class reference?

Members

To add insult to injury, python has no explicit support for member definition. A class's members are created by setting them equal to something. There is no way to explicitly define them in the class definition. Anybody, anywhere, can add (or remove) members variables from a given object. Classes in Python are more like dictionary objects with functions attached than classes.

Lambda

After much frustration at using your broken OO, I decided to give it a rest. Maybe python would make more sense if I just treated it as a flat procedural language. Then I noticed lambdas.

They can only be one line.

Ok, what is the point of including lambdas at all if they can only be one line? I mean, sure, I can pass an incrementor as a function reference, but real functional programmers don't use lambda's this way (well they do, but that's just the most basic use). Including the feature at all is an insult to those who would try to use it.

Concluding...

There was once a boy named Peter who had rich parents. Peter had a rather odd habit. Whenever he saw other kids playing with toys that he didn't own, he asked his mom to buy the toys for him. She always complied. However, upon receiving the toys Peter didn't play with them. They just sat on a shelf somewhere.

Partly it was because he didn't know how. But most of all, Peter didn't want the toys to play with, he wanted the toys as a sort of trophy, to show that he was better than the other kids. And his mother wondered why so many new things ended up sitting on the shelf unused.

Python, you are just like the little kid Peter. You see something others have, decide you must have it, and then you just stick it somewhere. To become a better language, you must outgrow this little kid copy cat phase.

If you want objects, implement objects all the way. This includes things like encapsulation and variable definitions. But if you don't want objects, then don't implement them at all. It is no help for anybody when you implement something that you don't want people to use.

In the end, though python is certainly better than PHP, and miles ahead of Perl, it is still not a good language. I doubt I will ever consider starting any major projects in Python.

Comments

Kurtis Rainbolt-Gree

You should really check out Ruby. Object Oriented to the very core, more simple than Python, easier to read than Python, etc.

David Turnbull

Ruby suffers from little kid copy cat phase as well, but the lack of a "one right way to do anything" policy allows for a somewhat evolutionary cull - idiomatic ruby today is the best of breed of previous idiomatic ruby styles that are reinforced by a massive github participancy.

Python would be far better off removing the simplicity policy (and guido, btw) so that the bad OO style, bad stdlib etc can be innovated on.

Eric Larson

While I think you're making some valid points regarding some warts of the language, I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. It really doesn't matter when your solving a problem that you need to write "self". The clarity in fact means you could write a single character if you'd like. You aren't limited to the "self" requirement in terms of characters, but rather it is simply a convention. I also think, that while not optimal, using the lexical scope to define class attributes and making class variables defined in the __init__ is a rather nicer translation of the concept compared to using special characters or other textual hints.

Likewise, I think saying that without encapsulation, OO in Python is lacking. There are a few options there. There is nothing stopping you from writing getters and setters. You can hide variables in the sense you can communicate they are meant to only be used internally via the "_foo" convention. If you are really serious about their unavailability to the user of an object use "__foo". Sure, you don't get to have a public function that simply sets/get private variables, but there is the "property" decorator that makes the concept rather seamless.

I'm not trying to criticize, but instead just making the point that your annoyances do not impact the ability to get something done. Again, the lambda argument, while contentious in the python community, is not a deal breaker. You can create a function inline (a closure) and easily pass it around like you would a lambda. Just because you are forced to be more explicit when the function is more than one statement suggests a consistent ideal within the language.

Personally, I don't disagree that the issues you bring up can feel incorrect or hacked on, but the bigger gain you get from Python is in its actual implementation. There is usually an obvious route from Python to C that makes things like optimizations easier to consider. Changing a for loop to a list comprehension is a great example where you gain speed by pushing the iteration to the C level. Likewise, tools such as Cython make improving speed simpler and generally speaks to the maturity of the Python as a language. It is this kind of quality that I think makes Python such a nice language more so than the language itself. It is far from a panacea, but the small warts you bring up seem rather small compared to the gains you get from the community and maturity.

Kurtis Rainbolt-Gree

Agreed, and another problem in Ruby is that the community seems to seriously lack any drive to document work.

There are other things, as well, that I'd love to see written cleaner in Ruby (but will most likely never happen): def --> method, or elsif --> elseif. Small paper cuts.

Sean

# HTTP timeout control

>>> import socket

>>> socket.setdefaulttimeout(3)

# explicit vs implicit 'self'

If you're using an IDE like you claim, you're probably not typing the characters anyways. At least you shouldn't be if you're using a good IDE. Having the explicit 'self' makes it really clear for a new coder. Sure it's way different coming from Java, C, etc, but that's your problem -- that's how you've been trained.

# Multi-line lambdas

>>> f = lambda x:(x+1 and

... x+2 and

... x+3)

>>> f(5)

Anonymous

A little information is a dangerous thing.

This statement:

"In the end, though python is certainly better than PHP, and miles ahead of Perl"

Shows that you don't know what you're talking about, and so most of the article should be ignored. I'll leave it up to other people to dissect which bit of the statement is the problem :)

MAK

I wholeheartedly agree with almost everything you said. There are only two things that I don't really think are worth complaining about:

1. Batteries: I don't see how if something from the library does not suit you, you have to move to a different language. If it is simple (e.g. a collection/data structure) you can always roll your own (either in C or Python). Otherwise, searching the web often turns up a good open source implementation that addresses the same problem you face.

2. Members: Ability to add new members to instances isn't such a big of a deal IMHO. Yes, it can be bad and lead to very hard to track down bugs. But not really enough to force me to move to another more restrictive language.

Then again, these are only my opinions.

Great post, I hope Guido & co. reads this.

Matt Briggs

I don't actually mind the lack of OO so much as the lack of FP. Hate to be another ruby guy chiming in on a Python post, but after checking out both languages, that is what tipped the balance for me. I love listcomps in python, but the way that blocks are the first thing a rubyist will reach for is what sold me on the language. I really do think that both the python language and the python community are absolutely stellar, but I really wish Guido would give up a bit of his FP bias.

pyFan

I'm not sure how you can make the claim that the libraries are impenetrable - all the sources are there, you can sub-class or write your version. For example, pickle was a tad slow, so cPickle was born - compatible and improved.

The idea of open source, is exactly that - the source is open. You don't like something, you fix it and share it.

Agreed, 'this' (I prefer 'self' as most of the Python code does) is a pain. It would be better if classes could implement their own namespaces.

Jeet

re: "Members" --- Actully, this is one of the things Python has over heavyweight OO languages. If I want to add data, functions or whatever to an object, just bind it (e.g., "obj.length = 3"), instead of needing to define a new derived class. When writing libraries, this can save hundreds if not thousands of lines of code (not just in avoiding the need for the derived class, but also avoiding the need for special factory methods / container classes of the derived classes etc etc.). A long while back, I actually recoded a Java library I wrote in Python, and the resulting code base was not only approx. 30% of the Java one, but *much* more elegant, robust and a pleasure to write because if this and numerous other Pythonique tricks.

As for implicit this. Yeah, I can see why the excess might seem annoying to some. In my case though, I have always used "this->" in both C++ and Java, long before I event began using Python .... ("explicit is better than implicit")

Rian

I agree. I've had some of the frustrations, but looking at why I have these frustrations is because I--yes I!--try to make Python something it's not. Sure, the OO is limping along, it's a one-man-show; you have to be gentle with it. Creating enterprise grade and size applications in Python is asking for pain and suffering, and probably more than if you did it in Java. But at least Java would work, and the headache would be because of your coding and not the languages coding.

Like you say, python was made to be short and simple--use python in a way that isn't short and simple and you're asking for headache.

I won't go over all the things you're bitching about, because some you've got a point on some of them, while I'd say you're totally missing it on others. Maybe doing nothing but Java during your CS, as you say, has something to do with it (gosh... I would have puke to death)

Which makes even funnier that you miss the implied this. What the heck man! Every Java pope and IDE out there will try to make you use explicit this to reference members among other things to avoid possibly painful and difficult to debug errors!

You should know it.

Not to say that I love having to use "self.this", "self.that" 100% of the time, but you're not exactly making a good case...

Ranga

You're probably going to get a lot of heat for this. But somebody had to say it. :) My thoughts exactly.

The only reason I use Python is because of the large number of third-party libraries that have already been written.

Michael Langford

? Encapsulation ?

What do you call classes? They cover encapsulation by any definition I've ever seen.

Perhaps you don't know what encapsulation is the, or do not understand what python has in the way of it

Are you speaking about "direct modification of member variables"? This is a very nice feature, because at any time you can rewrite the assignment syntax into a getter or setter without changing client code. This is a very basic python technique. Additionally, by overriding the same __getattr__ and __setattr__ methods (or the property keyword), you can, gasp, add access controls to a class, just like you have in java. This is a *Clear* win over java. If you'd like to see how, look around 4:30 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HCZ23JUrvA.

Are you speaking about the lack of a mandatory access controls a la java/c++? First off smalltalk, one of the most OO languages out there, *shares* this same feature, as do most of the original OO languages, and secondly, Java and C++ *also* have ways to get at any of the internals of a class. The fact that it is easier to type anObject._thingyI'mNotSposeToTouch then a C++ friend declaration doesn't mean it's not just as possible. Actually, if you hate this feature of python so much, it's really easy to disable, just make explicity __getattr__ and __setattr__ methods for all your classes and disable setting or getting the varibles you don't want them touching. Then you pretty much have java's level of control.

In python you get *all the benefits* of mandatory access controls, getters and setters, but only need to write them when you need to write them. All the rest of the time, there is no code required.

As far as your explicit this points: Everyone agrees with you.

As to "replacing the batteries", you can rewrite any part of the standard library with any sort of debugging intermediary class you want, and due to those lax access controls, can reassign your object in place of theirs, and just pass up the calls to the superclass. You can use both the python debugger and C debugger quite easily from within a python program (pdb, try it out). I think we can safely replace this complaint with "I don't know how to run the debugger, and I don't like how certain libraries do exceptions, nor did I set the timeout to something low enough that it is apropos to my situation".

As to member definitions, you can easily rewrite the metaclass for your classes to disallow adding/modifying them if you don't like other people fingering your member variables and methods. Why someone would care about this, I don't know, but you most certainly can.

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/articles/metaclasses.shtml

For more about metaclasses.

And as to lambda, it's one statement, not one line. Why is this an issue? It's the same as half the functional languages out there. And since functions are first class objects in python, I don't see how this limits you in any way.

PontyMython

"I wasn't programming in C at all, I was still programming in Java."

Apparently, you kept trying to be programming Java, in Python this time. Unsurprisingly, you failed again. Sucks to be you.

Michael

This is quite unimpressive.

- Python has encapsulation: attributes are named according to their exposure. Look up the "__" syntax. There's also a name mangler to prevent you from depending on internal attributes.

- Libraries are static are stable. It is the same way with many other languages. Incidentally, not with Java (one of its most annoying 'features'). At any rate, the standard library is not the only library.

- On self: explicit is better than implicit. Besides, with a half-decent IDE (even vim for crying out loud) you don't even have to type it yourself. The Java way is not better - it is merely your preferred way.

- It is possible to enforce static members using the metamember "__slots__". You may also override default object behaviour by implementing your own "__getattribute__" and "__setattribute__" members.

- Python classes and objects are indeed (in most cases) dictionaries.

- Lambdas "can only be one line". This is flat out wrong. Where did you pick this up?

Overall, I think you are making the same mistake you did with C: you're still trying to write Java, only this time it's in Python.

Michael

I also just noticed you got like 2 years of experience. You need a lot more than just two years and the nerve to learn what a language is about, let alone criticize it.

Lennart Regebro

You are completely wrong. Encapsulation is not part of a three-legged stool, there are more things to OO than three. And encapsulation doesn't only mean restricting access.

The fact is that private members never ever help, they only cause problems when somebody made something private that shouldn't have been.

And the explicit self is a great help, as it means that there in practice is no difference between functions an methods, which simplifies things enormously.

And yeah, the lambda is a bit crippled, but then again, why would you need it? Lambdas are just anonymous functions. Write a function then. Is a "def foo" really so painful? Ah, no it's not.

So, wrong, wrong and wrong again. You'll see the light once you have used more Python. :)

John

Interesting points, but I feel you need to delve into Python a bit more as there are some inaccuracies in your article which detract from the better points.

I'd also recommend taking a look at a few other OO languages for comparison, as your interpretation of OO follows the rather narrow, mainstream Java/C++/C# point-of-view. Python objects predate Java BTW. Smalltalk/Squeak springs to mind instantly as rather an elegant approach, JavaScript's prototype-based is also worth a look (check out the book JavaScript: The Good Parts).

"And the manual has the audacity to claim that it is more clear. Let me tell you something. I programmed exclusively in Java while getting my BS in CS, and I have programmed nearly exclusively in PHP since."

Well, there you have it!!!

Michael Foord

To claim that Python isn't OO, that it is bolted on or crippled in some way is simply bizarre (usually a myth perpetuated by Ruby apologists).

Python has been object oriented from before its first release, *everything* is an object (in a way that isn't true in languages like C# and Java). The fact that Python also uses functions, or that its style of object orientation makes heavy use of dictionaries, doesn't make it less object oriented.

What an odd rant. :-)

looter

Sorry, but your web crawler example just annoyed me so much I had to comment.

I downloaded around 6TB over two years with my entirely-python based web crawler. I collected around one hundred million posts in my index, and downloaded approximately two gigabytes of HTML A DAY with it, off about 200 sites at its peak. For some sites I was recrawling them every five seconds, and these were insanely flakey sites, constantly timing out and crashing in new ways. I did it all in python, and it worked beautifully.

Python is exceptionally well suited for web crawling!

Ramdas

Boy,

You remind me of the mechanic who had a tummy upset because someone changed his tool set. Languages are nothing but tool chests, the tools inside differ. Some like some, others don't. Every tool chest has its own shortcoming. and so does languages.

Can you name a language without warts?

I bet you can't! I suggest you to learn Python properly.

Glad you did not mention white spaces. I'd have recommended you a week of coding in ANSI COBOL as a remedy

Jim

Your uninformed.

All the mainstream declarative languages do about the same thing. Some are slightly better at certain things than others. Use the right tool for the right job.

The most important part of a language is it's community.

You mention 3 array/list features(negative index, slice/splice, joining) that set Python apart. They were things you liked. Perl and PHP also has have them. Yet in the previous paragraph you implied that both languages were retarded.

Seriously. In a few years your going to realize that all languages suck. Some have more problems than others, but they all suck.

--------------------

perl -e ' @b = ("a", "b", "c"); print $b[-1];';

http://perldoc.perl.org/functions/splice.html

perl -e ' @b = ("a", "b", "c"); @c = @b; @d = (@c, @b); print join(" ", @d);';

php -r ' $array = array("a", "b", "c"); echo end($array);'

http://us.php.net/manual/en/function.array-slice.php

http://php.net/manual/en/function.array-merge.php

----------------------

http://lbrandy.com/blog/2009/08/how-i-grew-to-hate-every-computer-language/

Anonymous

Were I you, I'd be ashamed and embarrassed.

Ashamed for writing a screed ignorant of even basic facts.

Embarrassed for doing so in public, and putting my name to it.

mystilleef

Forgive me. I get the feeling your understanding of encapsulation is obscured.

It's obvious you have an unfortunately strong Java background. So if by encapsulation you mean making attributes of a class protected or private, you might be delighted to know that you can make attributes of a class in Python protected or private by appending "_" or "__" before them. However, you're misguided if you believe that's what encapsulation is about.

Encapsulation ensures that objects operate in isolation and communicate with each other only via a single consistent protocol. Objects, BY DESIGN, do not to meddle in the business of other objects. Objects are independent of each other. They mind their own business and are intentionally clueless of the existence or operation of other objects.

Encapsulation is a product of sound design and sophisticated engineering. It is NOT a programming language feature. This means that you can write valid Java code that is poorly encapsulated. You can also write valid ASM code that is robustly encapsulated. In other words, encapsulation is a concept that can applied to programming, design and engineering.

Since Python provides facilities of objects, functions, classes, modules and packages to operate independently from each other pretty easily, the concept of encapsulation is extremely amenable to Python, if not more so than Java. But that's a debate for another day.

I think the concept of encapsulation has not yet properly settled in for you. The irony is that you can learn more about encapsulation by playing with objects in Python than you'll ever do in Java.

In summary, encapsulation is a design/engineering concept. It's not a programming language feature.

DRY + SRP = Encapsulation

DRY - Do Not Repeat Yourself

SRP - Single Responsibility Principle

Kevin

For someone coming from a C background, Python feels relatively easy to use. While I have not used the OO features of Python, I do enjoy using Python especially for web programming.

Like someone has commented above, programming languages are just tools to use. If you want something and can't find it in Python, just use something that does.

Christian

Maybe Scala would be the right language for you. It is much more concise than Java, it has strong OOP, strong functional programming features, static typing and many well thought out features.

Take a look: http://www.scala-lang.org

Dan Buch

Others (above) said it better, but here goes:

- Take the time to internalize the aspects of <whatever>

that are valued most by <whatever>'s proponents.

- Let said aspects simmer in your brains for awhile.

- Still miserable?

`- SORTA: wait longer, or take a break

`- ABSOLUTELY: ask a proponent of <whatever> how it is

that you've become miserable

If you really are miserable with <whatever>, chances are you'll find out that <whatever> just isn't your cup of tea. No biggie. Move on. At the very worst, maybe you could write an open letter that's full of *questions* instead of assertions.

For purposes of full disclosure, I'm a full-time developer in a mostly-Python shop. I landed in Python because it's what fit my brain. Perhaps this is no surprise, as my brain was never subjected to Java/C++-laden CS curricula. I'd still love to be an expert in Java and C++ ... someday. Until then, I won't be publicly flaming parts of either language that I know I don't fully appreciate.

**Short version**: keep learning, dammit.

Cheers, ~Dan

Viktor

Re. self. I do not quite see why "self" should be stated as an argument to a function in a class. It seems superfluous - the indentation should already be a good enough indication that the function belongs to the class.

All-in-all, an interesting post.

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